Automating game debugging with AI!? We asked Morikatron's Kuwano

This is Umi Fujisawa from Public Relations

Japan's first error monitoring service for smartphone gamesAppmill for GAME,we will release

Appmill for GAME actuallyMorikatron Co., Ltd.test automation software developed by"Morika Tester,"achieves automated monitoring by using

So,"What exactly is a Morika Tester!?", we spoke with Mr. Kuwano, Sales Manager at Monobit Morikatron Holdings Co., Ltd., which also develops and researches AI!

1. What kind of company is Morikatron?

↑We visited the CECED2019 venue and interviewed him

Fujisawa:　Today, I'd like to ask Mr. Kuwano about Morikatron's AI business and game debugging services. Thank you in advance!

Mr. Kuwano,　I look forward to working with you!

Fujisawa　: First, could you give us a brief overview of what kind of company Morikatron is?

Mr. Kuwano,　Morikatron is celebrating its 2nd anniversary right now. It even says "2nd Anniversary" on the sweets! (laughs)

Fujisawa　, you're right! The cat is so cute!! (Illustration by Morikawa)

Mr. Kuwano　initiallygame AI developmentandconsultingstarted the company as a specialist in

to make it usable by everyoneresearch and developmentwe do contract development and consulting, while also conducting

Fujisawa　: I see, so you started with an AI business.

Mr. Kuwano　, since AI within a game can only be used within that specific game, when he considered what field it could be used in a more general way that would be useful to people in the industry, hedebuggingfocused on

Wow, Fujisawa　! So you're planning to create a service that will benefit the gaming industry.

Kuwano:　Yes. Regarding AI, Mr. Miyake from Square Enix"external AI" and "internal AIdefines it as"internal AI"is original to the company, so it cannot be shared, but"external AI"is for development support and debugging, so I talked with Mr. Miyake about how we should "share information and conduct research together to improve it" around the time of CEDEC last August.

Fujisawa　AI had both an internal and an external division! So that's why you decided to focus on the external AI research.

Mr. Kuwano　had been preparing to launch the debugging service even before that, but the debugging room was finally set up and started at the end of the year.

The reason why this happened is that even if we say "AI will automate debugging," if you don't understand debugging, you won't know how to incorporate it, and it will end up being half-baked, so we thought, "If we're going to do it, let's do it seriously," and decided to make it a proper business

Mr. Kuwano's expertise　, the first step is to ensure proper debugging is achieved. So,the quality of manual debuggingwe've started working on improving

2. Why Morikatron was born

Fujisawa　celebrated its 2nd anniversary in August 2019. What was the background behind the establishment of Morikatron?

Mr. Kuwano and　Director Narusawa produced a game at their previous company, and the illustrations and design for that game were handled by Mr. Morikawa from the AI ​​department. The two of them decided"Let's start an AI game company!"and when the question arose of who would take on the management role, our CEO, Mr. Honjo, stepped in, and that's how the company was founded.

At the time, I was working at another company, and when I suddenly saw the news that an AI company had been established, I wondered, "What will they do?"

Fujisawa　: Oh, I see. What was the process that led to Mr. Kuwano joining the company?

Mr. Kuwano　and Mr. Honjo often asked me to join, but when I quit my previous job, I remembered Mr. Honjo talking about Morikatron, so I called him directly. Joining has sped things up, so I think it was a good decision in terms of working on debugging projects.

Fujisawa　: I see! What kind of debugging services are available?

Mr. Kuwano　, to put it simply, we've basically done everything other debugging companies can do in pre-release debugging, such as terminal verification and tuning services. What we're currently working on is"automation tools,"developingan "Expert Debugging Lab"where debugging experts are dedicated to the task.

Fujisawa　Expert! Sounds impressive.

Mr. Kuwano　has recently started a localization service and is involved in a wide range of activities. Right now, he's focusing on debugging, so he's in a phase of steady progress rather than rapid expansion.

3. AI and Debugging

Mr. Kuwano　has created an automation tool called Morika Tester, but it's strictly for internal use. We have several such tools and are conducting various research and development projects.

Fujisawa　Morika Tester uses Appmill for GAME, but has it not yet been released as a service to the public?

Mr. Kuwano　doesn't have it yet. It's an item that we use in projects we've taken on as part of our in-house debugging to improve efficiency, and now that we've finally seen some results, our CEO, Mr. Honjo, presented it at CEDEC 2019.

Fujisawa　: I see! Is Mr. Honjo in charge of debugging and Mr. Morikawa in charge of the AI?

Mr. Kuwano　, technically, the companyan AI departmentanda debugging department. Mr. Morikawa will be doing research in the AI ​​department, while the debugging department was established from scratch and is basically separate.

Fujisawa　is divided into two departments. How does the AI ​​department proceed with projects?

Mr. Kuwano,　regarding AI, we do not only contract work but also research and development. There are areas in AI where we don't know if it's possible, so we don't often work with companies that aren't willing to collaborate with us.

Mr. Kuwano,　for example, there are times when you need to do something using AI, but you lack the resources or the necessary expertise, so that's whenwebecome part of your team and help you out.

Fujisawa　, wow! So you'll be joining that company's team and working there!

Mr. Kuwano's　workspace is separate, but we're trying to work in a style where we're doing research together as the same team. It's called a lab contract, and instead of there being deliverables, it's more like lending people, or rather, lending the whole team. All the research results and such will remain, and it's like we're working together to improve it. The AI ​​team tends to take on more projects like that.

Fujisawa:　Is that so? Are the AI ​​department and the debugging department doing completely different things?

Mr. Kuwano　, that's right. Our AI division is actively working on developing AI-powered automation tools in parallel with our AI lab contracts and other related businesses.

4. Debugging will save the gaming industry

the Fujisawa　from people in, "Thanks to Morikatron, we've had such great results!"Have you heard any feedback

Mr. Kuwano,　in the debugging part I'm currently mainly working on, we previously used other debugging companies, but there were clients who received complaints from users or whose bug count didn't decrease even after release.

Fujisawa　, yes yes.

Mr. Kuwano　conducts quality analysis for customers facing such challenges, quantitatively visualizes the quality of the product, and highlights the issues and risks. By addressing these issues, such as revising test items, making significant changes to the testing system, defining the test scope, and proposing development schedules that consider the balance of QCD, we havea 30-40% reduction in costs and a decrease in defectsseen

Wow,　Fujisawa!

Mr. Kuwano,　simultaneously reducing costs and improving qualityis a difficult challenge, but you managed to do it and achieve stable operation. Morikatron is a company that really thinks about quality. We're pretty assertive and give a lot of feedback to the development team. We have a pushy style where we say things like, "We can't do it without this document by this date." Thisresonates with customers who have challenges, and they seem to appreciate it.

Fujisawa　Morikatron will be involved in a consulting capacity!

Kuwano:　Yes, up until now it was more like we'd gather a group of people and have them do it and that would be the end of it, but now we're going to delve a little deeper and make proper proposals.

Fujisawa　What kinds of game projects does

Mr. Kuwano　works on Steam PC games and console games like the Nintendo Switch. He currently has about 15 clients, and even though his company is still in its early stages, he's happy when his name appears in the game credits.

Fujisawa:　That makes me so happy!!

Mr. Kuwano　, recently there was a "5-company competition" to determine the best debugging company among five companies, and our company won.

Fujisawa:　Really?! That's amazing!!!!

Mr. Kuwano　was selected by an engineer. We're just doing what's expected of us, though.

Fujisawa　, wow. First of all, I didn't know there was such a competition!

Kuwano-san's　. I was surprised there were so many! (lol)

5. The History of Morika Tester

the Fujisawa　What was the development process behind

Mr. Kuwano,　in the game industry, automation hasn't progressed very far, even before considering AI.

Fujisawa　: Oh, really!

Kuwano-san's　manufacturers, or companies with a certain level of financial strength, are doing it. For example, SEGA's Yakuza series uses automated "high-speed debugging." Two or three years ago, Nintendo used automated tools for debugging The Legend of Zelda. But that's about it; there's nothing else that's been done by a dedicated debugging company.I've always wanted to do it.

Fujisawa　Kuwano wanted to do it!

Mr. Kuwano　, yes, personally. At my previous company, we also had an automation team, but there was a phase where we realized, "Games change specifications, so automation isn't possible."

Fujisawa　: Hmm, is that so?

Mr. Kuwano　, there weren't many good automation tools available. So,to build one from scratchwe decided

Fujisawa　: I see, so you thought that if it didn't exist, you'd make it yourselves.

Mr. Kuwano　, we've created the tool, buthow to actually implement it in projects. We didn't know if it would be easy for the debugging team to use, or if it would actually be effective, so we've been putting it into practice in the projects we're currently working on, and it's already showing results.

Fujisawa　, it's already showing results! Is that something you've been working on for a year since Kuwano joined the company last year?

Mr. Kuwano,　that's right. Actually, it hasn't even been a year yet. While we were using it in our own operations, I had told Mr. Haraoka (the CEO of Beyond) that we were making a Morika tester, sowhether there was anything we could doI consulted with him about

Fujisawa　from BeyondAppmillcame up as an idea.

, Kuwano-san　!

6. Can Appmill for GAME save the gaming industry?

Fujisawa　Appmill for GAME, released by"Japan's first error monitoring service for smartphone games,"is touted as

Kuwano-san　hasn't appeared before, isn't this the first time?

Fujisawa:　Oh, really? That's good to hear (laughs).

Mr. Kuwano,　there are automation tools like Eggplant and AirTest, but there aren't any tools specifically designed for that purpose, nor are there any domestically produced ones. There aren't any for gaming either.

Fujisawa　this year'sTokyo Game Show. From your perspective, Mr. Kuwano, who is knowledgeable about the game industry, what aspects of this service do you think we can highlight?

Mr. Kuwano　, I'm not sure yet what exactly will resonate with you, but Beyond24/7/365 monitoring,right?the client side can also monitorI think it's good that

Fujisawa　The 24/7 manned monitoring in

Mr. Kuwano　has already written a scenario for Morika Tester, right? The error occurs during that transition, so it could be something like the system is overloaded and has stopped, the server has crashed and stopped, the system is not working during the intended transition, or there's a character error.

Fujisawa:　So, when an error like that occurs, Morika testers detect it and notify Appmill for GAME. That's the system, right?

Mr. Kuwano,　that's right. The scenario changes depending on what you want to see, so if you want to take it in various directions, you have to prepare various scenarios. A scenario is something where you decide in advance what actions the user will take and then run it automatically.

Mr. Kuwano　, for example, if the game's progression is something like a tutorial followed by a battle and one gacha spin, the scenario will proceed accordingly. Then, if something happens at a certain point due to a version update and the game stops, an alert will sound.

Fujisawa　: I see, so when you upgrade the version, you have to rewrite the scenario as well.

Mr. Kuwano　doesn't need to do it, but if something changes, it will affect something else, so he checks everything thoroughly every time, even if it's the same thing. We run the scenario immediately after a version update, so having that done automatically 24/7saves the testers a lot of work.

Fujisawa:　How long do the testers actually spend visually inspecting the products?

Mr. Kuwano　doesn't do anything,take all day. Three to four hours. If you just take a quick look, it'll only take about 10 minutes, but you have to check it on all devices and double-check it.

Fujisawa　: Wow, you sometimes use it all day? Being able to automatically monitor things even in the middle of the night would really improve work efficiency!

7. Morikatron's vision of the future

↑Morikatron's booth at Tokyo Game Show 2019 (Beyond was next door)

Fujisawa:　Finally, how do you envision Morikatron's involvement in the game industry going forward?

Mr. Kuwano and　Mr. Morikawa"AI sommeliers,"callAI is just a means to an end.Even though we lump all of it together as AI, there are various terms like deep learning and machine learning. So, if you first have a clear objective and how to achieve it, then we can say, "How about doing it this way?" Even if we don't have the technology right now, we can say, "Couldn't you do it using this?" We can and will continue to engage in that kind of approach.

Fujisawa　AI's sommelier is so cool...!

Mr. Kuwano　, Japan is currently experiencing a declining birthrate, right? The number of testers is decreasing.

the number of Fujisawa players　decreasing...? That's dangerous for the gaming industry.

Mr. Kuwano　, debugging companies also need to hire a lot of people, but the number of people they can hire is decreasing. The minimum wage is going up, so costs are increasing. All of that is passed on to the manufacturers. In short, the numberof things to test is increasing, but the number of people to do the testing is decreasing.

Fujisawa　Games keeps increasing, doesn't it...?

Mr. Kuwano　said that kids these days are used to more intense games like Fortnite and Knives Out, rather than just simple clicker games, so the next games that come out will be even more complex, and there will be a lot more to do. He even said that debugging for Zelda wouldn't have been completed without automation. If you don't do it, you'll be in trouble. Manufacturers have been doing all sorts of automation for years, but no debugging companies are doing it.

藤沢　Fujisawa : Oh, really?

Mr. Kuwano,　that's because your products rely on people to get things done, so if you automate and reduce the number of people, sales will decrease, right?

Fujisawa,　that's right...!

Mr. Kuwano　doesn't even consider the idea of ​​automation. The reason we're deliberately pursuing it is because we're thinking,"But even so, there won't be any people left, right?"(laughs)

Fujisawa,　you're absolutely right (lol)

Kuwano　that things would get pretty bad eventually. So I thought thatwe do research now, when that phase comes, we'll be able to hand him automation tools.

the Fujisawa　So you're conducting your research by reading the trends of

Mr. Kuwano,　this is just a hypothetical situation, but that's what we're aiming for.

of Fujisawa　is definitely going to decrease...

Mr. Kuwano　, yes, it will definitely decrease.

Mr. Kuwano　in the futureautomating things, orthings that are normally operated by humans can be operated automatically by AI. I don't know how long that will take, though. As steps to get there, we'll be automating things and creating tools.

Fujisawa　Will using

Mr. Kuwano,　if the result is that we could have done it without using AI technology, and that we could have made it more efficient just by using the tools, then that's fine. It's not all about AI, and weit's ultimately faster if humans do it. That's why we're creating an expert debugging team in Kyoto. There are people who can produce three times as many bugs as humans, and it's definitely faster to have highly skilled people do it than to have a machine rewrite everything.

"Fujisawa　Expert Debuggers" means people with those kinds of skills!

Mr. Kuwano,　there are some amazing people out there.god-tier debuggersPeople who are called

Wow,　Fujisawa!

Mr. Kuwano　finds three times as many things as other people. It's like, "Wow, you found something like this!"

Fujisawa　has...

Mr. Kuwano　has a talent, or maybe it's his intuition... or perhaps it's his sense? He thinks a little differently from other people. Like, "Let's attack here."

Fujisawa　is so interesting! I'd love to visit the lab in Kyoto too.

Mr. Kuwano　, if it turns out that humans are the strongest, then that's fine, isn't it?

Fujisawa　: Yes, I agree.

Mr. Kuwano,　thoseif machines could learn from the knowledge and experience of? That's the kind of thinking that drives Morikatron.

Fujisawa:　I'm looking forward to seeing how Morikatron will contribute as an AI sommelier in the future. Thank you so much for sharing so much with me today!

summary

I felt that both Morikatron and Beyond have endless possibilities for how they can use AI to bring new things to the world. I believe that Appmill for GAME, which is being released this time, is one of those possibilities, and I hope it will be useful to even more people!a savior-like presence in the game industryI look forward to the future progress of Morikatron,24/7 human monitoring by engineers!

Appmill for GAME service page